Tell us a bit about your career background.

I’ve had the privilege of serving in several different countries as a pastor. I was ordained a pastor of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland, and served there for over 28 years. I was called to the Geneva RPC over here, and served there for 5 or 6 years, then 2 or 3 years in Winchester, Kan. For 16 years I was a professor in the RP Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pa. During all this time, I enjoyed my work as pastor, because I was a pastor at the seminary, too. Because, you see, anybody who has a pastor’s heart finds that people come to him and want to talk things through with him.

How many years did you serve as Pastor’s Pastor? How did it come about, and what was your role?

My role simply was to be a pastor to the pastors. We were finding people leaving the pastorate and going into other ministries for Christ and to secular activities, and we were talking about this together. I had the idea that maybe when I retired, I could go around the church holding evangelistic services and that sort of thing. Then it was suggested to me that pastor’s pastor was a need that I could be used to meet. I prayed about it. The matter was brought before the Home Mission Board, the Home Mission Board brought it before the Synod, and the Synod accepted it. And I think that one of the wisest decisions that Synod made at that time was to send the pastor’s wife along to minister to the pastor’s wives, because she had a ministry to those dear ladies that I would not have had, having been through the experience for many years herself. She knew the hurts; she knew the joys, and she could share and they could share with her,

You said initially “we” were talking about the issue of pastors leaving the pastorate. Who is “we”?

People like Pastor Ken Smith and Pastor Jim Carson.

Older pastors as well as you?

Yes. I wasn’t a pastor’s pastor as much to them. It was the younger people. The older pastors were being a pastor’s pastor, too. The ideal is, of course, that pastors minister to other pastors in the same presbytery, and the presbytery can be a real help that way. But at that time, there were young pastors who were in difficulties and were isolated couldn’t easily meet with others. Email at that time wasn’t common.

Can you tell me a little bit about your current status?

We carried on the pastor’s pastor work for three or four years. Then, Maureen and I couldn’t manage the long, heavy trips that we had had. We still had a telephone the Home Mission Board provided, which meant that pastors could call me. But then I began to see that the pastors were working together. They were going to other pastors with their difficulties in their presbytery or even out of their presbytery, and email was helping them, too. So for the last few years we have been working almost exclusively in the Geneva congregation and working there as an elder, and enjoying it very much, and thanking the Lord that that congregation is growing and growing still.

Some people think pastors receive enough special treatment or appreciation in their own congregation. Do you find that pastors are underappreciated or overapprecited?

Actually, to me, it does depend largely on the pastor himself. Some of us have a rather inflated idea of who we are. We need to be brought down a little. Others of us rate ourselves less than how God has gifted us, and we need to he encouraged. In my experience, the Lord suits your circumstances in your congregation according to your need. People do understand the pastor’s need, and in Christian love they can help him, according to what that need is. I grew a great deal, particularly in my first pastorate that, of course, because I got into a great deal of trouble being a young man and having my own ideas. Then all I had to do was drop into the driver’s seat of my car when gas was so much limited during the war, and I went to see my own dad, who had been a pastor for many years. He was the one who showed me how to be worthy of appreciation, because he been that very much in his own life.

What do you see as the role of the pastor, and specifically, what are things about the pastor’s role that members can misunderstand?

Once again it depends upon the people, but the pastor’s role, first and foremost to me, is that he is the servant of the Lord Jesus Christ. Of all the ministries I know, the one with emphasis on service is that of the pastor. He is Christ’s servant; he is God’s bondslave, to use the Greek meaning. You can’t get anything stronger than that. And it is his duty to be always ready for whatever may happen. We don’t often get calls at 2:30 in the morning, but that does happen. And we have to be ready for that. At times there is a sudden need that arises when we have something special planned for the family. And that is when it is really very difficult. The question is, Do I go for the congregation? Do I go for the family? I’m the servant of Christ, and in this particular situation, what does He require me to do? And that’s the way I must go. It could be one way or the other, but that’s how I must approach it. I am Christ’s servant. Sometimes people don’t understand that, when a pastor may occasionally feel it’s his duty to put his family, for this one instance, before another less urgent need. Some people misunderstand his role as a shepherd. I don’t know how many people who read the Covenanter Witness have worked with sheep, but I do know that sheep need a lot of attention, and sheep need very special care at times, according to their needs. Some people feel the pastor is being too close to them, too inquisitive. But he’s doing this simply to know the need. If people realize that here is a man with a heart who loves the Lord, and who loves people, then they will gladly respond, and give him the help he needs to help them.

What do you see as the role of the congregation in their relationship with the pastor, and specifically what are things that members can do to help their pastor that they aren’t always aware of?

The role of the congregation is the same role as that of a pastor. All are servants of Christ. Members of the congregation, then, as the Lord’s servants, need to analyze their gifts, and see what the Lord requires them to do in the congregation. He will require of them as He has gifted them. And so it is for them, then, to talk over this matter of service in the church with the pastor. It’s one of the gifts he’s sure to ask of them, particularly when one is entering your congregation. But they need to talk it over with the pastor and see what the Lord requires them to do. In that way, each one, according to his several gifts, will be brought closely into the work of the congregation.

In your experience, do pastors sometimes misunderstand what people in the congregation should be expected to do?

It depends on the pastor. There are some pastors who want to go it on their own. They’re not happy unless they are doing it themselves. And how much they miss! This is one thing I did come across occasionally—not very often, but occasionally—people who are naturally leaders, who would be inclined very often to do it themselves, or to drive instead of lead. My experience is that people don’t drive easily. But they will follow a gentle, strong leader.

Were you surprised by anything you came across as you were serving as pastor’s pastor?

Well, I can’t say I was surprised by anything, because, after all, Maureen and I had been in the pastorate from 1941 to 1993. During a length of years like that, you meet most things. You meet the challenges, and you meet the successes, and you remember that always there is a war on. And as I think of this, it makes me think of what is happening in this country at this time, and how amazingly united this nation seems to be behind our president and those under him. That is what we really need to realize, pastors and congregation alike. We need to realize that this is war: Satan and his angels fighting against the Lord. What we need above everything else in any congregation is unity; a congregation that is bound together—with differences of opinion, divergences of opinion, even—but united under one thing: What does the Lord require us to do? If I don’t agree with it, I’ll pray for it, and I’ll see what work I can do that would help it. But above all, I have to be wholehearted in my desire for oneness in the congregation. So many of the times when I was asked to meet with pastors, it was to deal with this problem. Sometimes it was the pastor’s responsibility for what had happened. In that case there had to he a heart-to-heart talk with him, and he had to realize the mistakes that he had made, all very gently clone. In one case at least, he made an open confession to the congregation. And there was a greater unity after that than there had been. And then in the other instances, there were people in the congregation who lacked the vision the pastor had. Sometimes even in the session there was a lack of vision that the pastor had. Then that had to be dealt with specifically by the session.

What do you think is the best way, if a member of a congregation has a difference of opinion with his or her pastor, for that person to approach the pastor to deal with the problem?

The pastor may have to go to him. But it’s better, every time, when that member lifts the telephone and says, “I need to talk with you. There’s something we need to talk about. When can we meet?” Let that member pray it through, spend a long time praying it through before the Lord, asking the Lord to search his own heart and see his own motives. Why is he differing? Why does he not see what the pastor sees? And then come in all honesty to the pastor and show him exactly where he stands and the reason why he stands that way. If the pastor is a pastor worthy of his status, he’ll respond.

What are some concrete and tangible ways that members can be of service and help to their pastors?

One thing I always appreciated was a good handclasp at the door, and a “thank you.” That of course is a small thing in itself, but it means a great deal. Another thing I’ve always appreciated is someone who is standing with me shoulder-to-shoulder in the work. That goes for men and women both. Particularly, it has been a great experience to me to help younger people who come to me and say, “Well now, I would like to serve the Lord.’ I say to them, “OK. You’re going out with me, and I’m taking a group of the young people out down to the town square, and I’m going to preach, and you’re going to be there, and you’re going to join with them in the singing of the Psalms, and later on, when you’re able, I’ll ask you to stand up there and tell how the Lord brought you into His kingdom. That’s the sort of’ thing that you can do for me.” I’ve found that people really grew doing that kind of work.

Can you think of specific passages of Scripture that help to clarify the relationship between the pastor and the congregation, or the rote of the pastor and the rote of the congregation?

Paul wrote to the Corinthians, that, “You have my whole heart” (2 Cor. 6:11). When you read 2 Corinthians, you see Paul almost weeping over the trouble he’s having with that congregation. But he says, “You’ve my whole heart.” And that’s what we have to give as pastors to a congregation. There were times when I felt heartbroken over things, because people didn’t want to go that way. There were wrongs in the congregation that people refused to put right; wrongs in their individual lives. And that’s hard. But you still have your whole heart towards your people in your work for the Lord. As regards the congregation, there is I Thessalonians 5:12-13: “But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord, and give you instruction, and that you esteem them very highly in love, because of their work.” That sums it up. And then it’s interesting that he goes on to say, “Live in peace with one another.” That makes me think of Philippians 2: “if you have any encouragement in Christ, any consolation of love, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose, doing nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind, let each of you regard one another as more important than himself” (vv. 1-4). That’s what I’m getting at.

What do you think was the greatest blessing to you in being a pastor, and then in being a pastor’s pastor?

The greatest blessing was that the Lord kept me living near to Him. When you’re a pastor, you simply can’t get away from Him; because if you do, you make mistakes. You don’t handle things the way you should. It’s just a walk with the Lord, trying to keep step by step with Him. That has been the greatest blessing to me as a pastor, and that’s how I’ve tried to live my life. If I just could mention one more thing, because I have found this as a real difficulty in my own pastorate for a time, and I found it among the other pastors as well: the tendency to put too much emphasis on the congregation, and not enough on the home. The Dromara congregation was a large church, over 400 members, well over 400. I was working night and day, and the boys were growing up, and l hadn’t time even on a Saturday to be with them, because that was the only day some people could he visited. Then Maureen talked to me, and said, “Renwick, if you don’t look out, you’re going to lose your boys.” I thank God for her! Because then I realized that was sin. I repented of that sin, and thank the Lord—those boys are really serving Christ, That’s something that pastors need to watch, particularly those of us who have a lot to do. A pastor’s life is very, very full. He has to work in his church; he has to he a father and a husband; he has to have a standing in the community for Christ; and it’s so easy to get caught up. If there’s one thing I found out from working with pastors, it was that Christ is first. But that doesn’t mean that you put things first that He doesn’t put first, in different situations.